Not bad CML-555! I would beg to differ though on the winter being the single factor that caused the losses you mentioned. German delay of Barbarossa due to bailing out Italy in the Balkans and a front so wide that it spanned nearly 1000 miles (1500 km) with three Army Groups also were factors as well as the inadequate clothing for the harsh winter. And once the Ostfront war was proceeding the Germans had to process 100s of thousands of Russian prisoners marched to the rear which caused delays as well so that the German Army came within 10-12 miles of Moscow before the Soviet counter-offensive kicked in using Mongolian troops from Siberia. Still, under bad conditions the Germans pushed in several directions to conquer more land although the roads were impossible and the ruined rail lines needed repair. Mopping up operations and the attached Einsatzkommando operations further hindered the German Army. When the offensive was in its early stages the German panzers were two weeks ahead of their support infantry and the logistics nightmare just got worse day-by-day before the rains arrived. For Stalingrad it was Hitler's insistance that no ground be ceded and hence, no withdrawl. Cost the Sixth Army dearly and of the 91,000 that surrendered only 5000 survived Russian captivity. Yet it had taken 6 mos of fierce fighting at Stalingrad to dislodge the Germans that had entered in August 1942. And that was still not the true turning point which was after Kursk. Despite "General Winter" it took the USSR almost 4 years of battle to reach Berlin and Germany killed 30 million in Russia (5x the Holocaust). Btw CML, the Russians DID cross the Volga with 15,000 men to bolster Chuikov's decimated units. FYI

Forgot to mention that the LW also was a factor in defeat in Russia. Goering forbid the development of the Ural Bomber so Germany did not succeed in bombing the rail lines so that the Soviets couldn't move entire factories and personnel behind the Urals. Second, although the LW had air superiority through most of the war in the east, the LW lacked suitable transport aircraft for critical support. At Stalingrad the Germans were down 100s of tons of food, weapons, and materials that caused them to die. And third, when considering whether or not to drop Tabun gas bombs on the Soviets, the LW declined to handle the materials even before Hitler decided not to use nerve gas at all (even in Berlin)!!! Another point was that even if Germany developed an atomic bomb, liquid air bomb, radiological bomb, or molecular bomb- the LW didn't have a real strategic bomber as the Me-264s were bombed and the He-277 was forbidden. The He-274 and Ju-488 in France were not completed in time and no time for jet bombers either (Ho-XVIII).

this parody had me Russian to the 5's Merry Christmas!

It is incredible the conditions in which men can fight. I have seen books published in Germany 10 years after the war with photos and info on men still missing. There was a commission established through the Red Cross trying to find them.

Patrick- why look? The Soviets killed almost 2 million German soldiers marched back into the USSR to repair it until 1955! Some were tortured and killed while most starved to death. Did you think Stalin would go light on them after winning the war but being utterly devastated by the German invasion and occupation of much of the nation? The land was three times destroyed- far worse than the rotten condition the Wehrmacht found it when invading or withdrawing. I forgot who said it but the Germans were swallowed up by the wretched land that went on forever and the fact that they felt like they were traveling back in time to Medieval serfdom conditions! The ideal Communist Man was no intellectual but a plain worker and farmer, hence the constant purges and oppression by Uncle Joe. That's why the USSR had no real jet aircraft, no development of their rocket technology pre-war, and no superweapons. Stalin hated aviation and intellectual war planners, designers, inventors, etc... sad that the Allies punished Germany over Poland and the USSR and then went to a Cold War against the USSR and Warsaw Pact countries in the name of capitalism (not true democracy) over fascism. Btw, "Better Dead than Red" originated with Goebbels Anti-communist Volkssturm propaganda and NOT with any US 1950s Anti-Communist policy. So we ended-up fighting against the USSR and the spread of communism too, using the words of the Nazis and feeling the same way as Hitler did!!! There were those in the Pentagon and US Armed Forces that wanted the Communists and USSR utterly destroyed off the face of the earth and urged several Presidents to nuke them when WE had the advantage. Too bad we didn't. We're going to pay for that mistake in the future.

Now wait just a doggone minute. Whose thread is this, anyhow? :-D. What I meant was that the sudden onrush of a Arctic cold front in December 1941 was a significant, if not decisive factor in Germany's failure to seal the deal in 1941. They were getting close to Moscow in late November when the cold suddenly froze them in place. I've read accounts of lubricants for small arms freezing and fuel lines freezing in trucks and tanks and of Germans building fires under their panzers so they could start them up. Moreover it got so cold the Germans had to dig into the ground and huddle in place just to keep from freezing to death ........ And as long as we're talking about weather factors, what about Colonel Mud. Germany had just inflicted two incredible annihilating defeats at Vyazma and Bryansk and were ready to waltz into Moscow unopposed when the Mid-October rains and the quagmire they created stopped them cold. This gave Russia a desperately needed breather ........ And I agree that Hitler's ill considered bailout of Mussolini in the Balkans, which delayed the start of Barbarrosa for 6 weeks was crucial. If they start on May 15, they bag Moscow before the autumn rains. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if the late start was a factor for the spectacular early victories, as it must have taken the Russians completely by surprise. They must have thought that no one would have been so mad as to invade three and a half months before the autumn rains began.

When arguing war and Nazi Germany... well, your thread is mine ;-) I agree with you that General Winter was a significant factor but decline to say it was the only factor in the failure to take Moscow in Dec 1941. IF Hitler had started earlier, ordered winter clothing for his troops, had real transport aircraft to deliver supplies, weapons, and ammo, AND had a Ural Bomber destroying the rail lines east... THEN things could have been different. As it was by Dec 1945, the Germans had killed 6 million Red troops, captured 3 million POWs, and destroyed 21,000 tanks which included the shocking T-34 (Germans had only PzKpfw I & II plus 35 &38(t) but used their artillery and large rocket launchers to kill them anyway)!!! But had Moscow fallen no one really knows if the USSR would have crumbled. They had safe armies in the North and in the east with oil assets also in the east plus factories safe from LW bombing. The war could have still gone on w/o Stalin. Moscow was a symbol, so Stalin HAD to defend it down to the last man. Again, it would take the Reds almost 4 years to get to Berlin and ultimately 30 million were killed in The Great Patriotic War. Everyone in the former USSR has family that were killed by the Germans. The most fierce fighting was always on the Ostfront, making D-Day and fighting in the West/Med look like child's play.

Rob writes: "Too bad we didn't [nuke the Communists and USSR]. We're going to pay for that mistake in the future." The future is now more than 60 years old. How will we pay in the future yet to come? After all, we defeated the USSR by other means and the concessions at Yalta have been undone. Also, why, in your opinion, did Hitler decline to use nerve gas against the USSR? Was his experience with gas warfare in WW1 a deterrent? And suppose Germany had delayed its aggression for a couple of more years, secretly developed strategic bombers and the A-Bomb and made rubble of the rest of Europe and all of the USSR? Would they then have destroyed American assets in the Pacific, nuked Japan out of its relatively local ambitions for a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" and then set its sights on occupying the government of the isolated U.S.? Just a matter of daring thinking and patience by Hitler and his High Command. What would the world look like today? Would the human race be far more creative and productive, and would we be approaching Paradise on Earth? Would Germany have killed off most of Africa, Dutch East Indies, Australian Outback, etc., to achieve heritable purity? It seems to me that the 1,000 year Reich would have been achievable if Germany had delayed Allied action with political stalling a la Munich, while it completed building its war machine started in the 30s, with no opposition from the likes of Taft, Vandenburg, Lindbergh, Joseph Kennedy, Mosely, etc.

One example of Hitler's lack of subtlety: Through Goebbels, he should have commissioned Leni Riefenstahl to produce a fiction movie portraying Germany in the near future as a Utopian state. A love story with all the required romantic schlock. The Hollywood Jews would have gobbled it up. It would have pre-empted Mission to Moscow, The North Star, Way to the Stars, etc. Benign Nazis, instead of the bellicose images coming from Triumph of the Will and Olympiad. Soften up the Allied public and then launch an overwhelming blitzkrieg. But Hitler had his own internal arms industry and military hawks to appease. Too bad.

@Ghost: first of all, I'm not talking 1945 for nuking the USSR but postwar from the '50s-60s when the US had the advantage of nuclear stockpiles AND SAC (Strategic Air Command) that flew 24 hrs a day as deterrent in the Cold War that actually started in WW2 with Germany and its eastern co-belligerents that got overrun. Roosevelt joined Churchill at Yalta in appeasing Stalin and giving up the freedon of E Europe for a Soviet sphere of influence. And to think Britain and France declared war on Germany on Sept 3. 1939 OVER Poland's sovereignty only to sell them out by '43! Russia, even with arms reductions, has 1.5:1 in nukes against the US officially; unofficially that climbs to 2.5:1 b/c they remove the warheads and store them for future re-mating to missiles. Russia is NOT defeated as an enemy of the West as Russia can wipe out the entire earth by itself with its lone arsenal. They remain a nuclear Superpower and the USAF in any WW3 could never hold their vast airspace against huge numbers of MiGs and Sukhois and the layered missile defense system plus the Perimeter doomsday device that is active. A Russky sub off either US coast can hit a strategic target in 15 mins or less. As for Hitler and nerve gas there is a myth circulating that b/c he was gassed in WW1 that he refused to use it. Another is the myth of suspected Allied gas against Germany in retaliation if used by the Nazis first. But the truth is that stocks of Tabun WERE moved to one of Berlin's rivers and sat on a barge that was captured by the Soviets. Orders never came for the artillery shells to be used(probably due to incompatibility with the caliber of the guns in Berlin). The LW also had limited stocks of Tabun bombs but allowed the SS to handle them as the LW and their crews did not want to play with that stuff. And had Germany waited until 1944 to start the war as Hitler's Generals had wanted, the Germans would have had their completed fleet with 1-2 aircraft carriers, more U-boats, more AFVs, perhaps 4-engine bombers (Amerika and Ural types), and most of the initial secret weapons. The A-bomb is questionable b/c of the research nature of the original program. Extra time would probably have benefitted Britain more b/c their program Tube Alloys would NOT have gone to the US as basis for the Manhatten Project and Britain might have got the bomb first putting Germany in danger! The V-program would also be questionable and jets were disliked by the LW in 1939- no effort to get them into serious production until mid-war (although the jet engine difficulties might have been worked out with extra years). Germany most likely would have been able to take the Continent and Britain (through bombing and strangulation by 300 U-boats in the N Atlantic vs 100 tops), take N Africa and sweep into Egypt moving on to the land bridge of Palestine and reconnecting with Europe. Mussolini would have been overjoyed and Hitler probably would have supported his friend by allowing the Italians to manage much of N Africa to relieve German troops for fighting elsewhere. As for the Japanese, they probably wouldn't have gotten much from Hitler with Russia b/c of the oil reserves in the west and east, but probably would have been allowed to pursue its sphere of influence in Asia and possibly isolated Australia. Regarding "Triumph of the Will" and "Olympiad": they were Nazi visual masterpieces that projected Germany's quick rise to power, its pride, and strength to the world. To the avg. German is showed order of the highest magnitude and discipline, obedience, and pride unrivaled in the world. No need for subtlety at all. Germany was a nation of hunters and of the Prussian military traditon- Nazis just added an occult element and a dynamic orator who had plans for world domination (although that too is merely part of the German character historically, and part of the old German national anthem).